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Good evening, what you are about to witness is an unrehearsed, uncensored interview. My name is Mike Wallace, the cigarette is Philip Morris.

Tonight we go after the story of one of the most extraordinary men of our time. You see him behind me, he is eighty-eight-year-old Frank Lloyd Wright, perhaps the greatest architect of the twentieth century. And in the opinion of some, America's foremost social rebel. According to a story in Life Magazine not many years back, fellow architects have called him everything, from a great poet to an insupportable windbag. The clergy has deplored his morals, creditors have deplored his financial habits, politicians, his opinions. And we'll get Frank Lloyd Wright's views on morals, politics, religion and architecture in just a moment. My guest's opinions are not necessarily mine, the station's, or my sponsor's Philip Morris Incorporated, but whether you agree or disagree we feel sure that none will deny the right of these views to be broadcast.

And, now to our story. Admirers of Frank Lloyd Wright hail him as a man one hundred years ahead of his time. Now, eighty-eight years old, he is still designing homes and buildings which are revolutionary, including plans for a mile-high skyscraper for which he's had no buyers yet. But just as radical as Frank Lloyd Wright the architect is Frank Lloyd Wright the social critic. Mr. Wright, before we go any further, I'd like to chart your attitudes specifically, by getting your capsule opinions as an architect or as a social critic of the following

Therefore you, would just as see... er... just as soon see your religion unorganized?

Are you a religious man yourself?

Do you go...

Do you go to any specific church?

All right, sir, what do you think...

I spell God with a G, you will spell it with...?

What do you think of the American Legion, Mr. Wright?

What do you mean by that?

Uh-huh.

Mr. Wright...

We will come back both to organized religion and the American Legion. I'm trying right now just to get capsule opinions as a sort of chart against which to play the rest of the interview. The third capsule opinion I'd like from you, and then we'll go on to other things... Mercy killings, what do you think of them?

When you say if it's mercy killing, you mean?

If the person...?

Well, if the person is considerably advanced in age, is at a point where he or she no longer appreciates, understands life, is in constant pain, do you believe the doctors could have the privilege?

Oh, you would not?

Uh-hum. You think then... that a doctor for instance, who understands the situation, has the right to take the life of a patient under those circumstances?

Am I speaking legally? No, I am speaking morally.

All right, but that as a background...

Ethically you believe he has the right?

With those...

If there was no hope. With those three opinions as background, let me ask you this if I may. You obviously hold some fairly unconventional, even unpopular, ideas Mr. Wright. What do you think...?

(LAUGHS) What do you think of the average man in the United States, who has little use for your ideas in architecture, in politics, in religion?

The average man, the common man, I think that you have sometimes called him part of the mobocracy - part of the mob.

Would you agree with me...?

Would you? -- He's a block to progress -- Would you agree with me that a pretty fair share of our audience tonight either can't, or doesn't want to, understand modern art like the paintings of Picasso or modern music, let's say by Stravinsky; possibly they don't even know, don't even want to or cannot understand you. Uh... What do you think of these people who either don't understand or don't care?

What do you personally think of Picasso, some modern... no, let's not say Picasso... what do you think of modern paintings that some people say?

Well, he's a very good instance, but what, rather than go specific here, I'd like to talk about modern paintings. Some people say that they look like scrambled eggs, some people say that serious modern music sounds like a bad night in a boiler factory. I would like to know your opinion of modern painting in general.

That's one of your buildings?

What do you think of Salvador Dali?

Uh-huh. Is he...?

Is Salvador Dali a great public relations specialist?

Are you?

You said many years ago, that you would some day would be the greatest architect of the twentieth century. Have you reached your goal?

Well, I've done a considerable amount of reading...

by you and about you, this week. And I don't think there is a good deal of doubt about the fact that over the years, you have said it not once, but many times. Maybe not... maybe not in that specific form.

Uh-huh. You do feel it?

What is arrogance?

Arrogance...

Arrogance can sometimes be a shell to protect the inner man too, can it not, even though that inner man has a good deal?

Didn't you, in a sense, suggest that about the teacher whom you loved best of all, Louis Sullivan, did you not say that he was a shell with considerable substance but that he had this arrogant shell of... to protect himself?

In other words this article, for instance, from which I will quote now, Philadelphia Enquirer Magazine, section October 18th 1953, said as follows

How do you feel about such criticism, Mr. Wright?

Doesn't bother you?

You say that if someone you deeply respected said that -- is it unfair of me to ask you specifically whom you do deeply respect who is on the current scene?

And... is it wrong of me to ask you specifically, who you, Frank Lloyd Wright, admire, respect?

Names...

I don't know. That's up to you, sir, or if you prefer not...

I imagine.

All of us, yes. I understand last week...

This cigarette?

Not at all, I enjoy it. Can I offer you one?

May I offer you one?

Have you never smoked, sir?

Oh, it's perfectly all right. Some do, some don't.

All right, sir. I understand that last week in all seriousness you said, "If I had another fifteen years to work I could rebuild this entire country, I could change the nation."

Of course, you don't really believe that you could succeed in imposing your ideas on what you call the mob, do you Mr. Wright?

Phony in what sense?

Well, what in the world, if I may make so bold, is innate or part of our fiber here in America, as a mile-high skyscraper. I'm told that you have had on your drawing board for some months now a mile-high skyscraper, for which you have no buyers up to now.

Passed your drawing board?

Why were you going to build it?

Well, for what reason? You obviously would not want to build a just as a stunt, would you?

And what would happen, sir, in the case of an atomic attack?

Are you talking scientifically or is this just a pure hunch?

How do you square such a mile-high skyscraper with your theories on decentralization, Mr. Wright. You're for an end to cities, an end to congestion?

All right. All right.

Mr. Wright, you don't have much faith in the mob, and yet I'm told that you have a good deal of faith in the nation's youth?

How do you square one with the other?

Is it not?

Well let me ask you this...

The mob.

What is your reaction when I tell you that the nation's teenagers bought eleven million Elvis Presley records last year. Which... which group of youth do you think will inherit this country fifteen years from now, the Elvis Presley fans or the Frank Lloyd Wright fans?

Time Magazine published an article back on November 5th, 1951, Mr. Wright, that has been echoed by social critics ever since. Time said at that time, "The most startling fact about the younger generation today is its silence."

Silence.

By comparison with the flaming youth of their fathers and mothers, today's younger generation is a still small flame. It does not issue manifestoes, make speeches, or carry posters.

That's Time Magazine's statement and it has been echoed by good many social critics.

Incidentally, a good deal of the research for tonight, and I am sure that by no means a good share of it is going to be made evident, is a... came from your new book A Testament by Frank Lloyd Wright, which will shortly...

You haven't seen the...?

We got it from your publisher. Here, take a look.

And from Look Magazine, which is going to be out on the stands this week. It has a fascinating article. Now then, we only have about three minutes left, Mr. Wright, I'd like your opinion of Charlie Chaplin the comedian, and Charlie Chaplin the man.

You've heard of Charlie Chaplin's anti-Americanism?

Sir, if I were to start now answering that question, in as much as we only have three minutes left, chances are that we could talk just about that for three minutes. When you say, what do I mean about?

Well, for one thing, the fact that though he lived here...

Is there anything... anything more...?

Well, let's talk about Mr. Chaplin for just a moment. He lived here in this country for good many years, made his living here, and yet refused to...

become a citizen.

Would you say that he was abused?

What do you think of General Douglas...

What do you think of General Douglas McArthur?

A hero ex-soldier?

Oh, an heroic soldier, I see.

That is all you want to say about the General?

All right. Let me ask you this

(LAUGHS) What do you think of?

You don't like intellectuals, why not?

Uh-huh.

I'm trying to figure it out.

What do you think of President Eisenhower as an intellect?

Why did you vote for Stevenson as opposed to Eisenhower?

But you voted for him nonetheless?

I understand that you may still design a dream home for Marilyn Monroe and her husband Arthur Miller?

That is the word that, er... we have from the...

Yes.

Yes

Oh, I see. Well, may I ask you one last architectural question? We have just about ten seconds for an answer to this one, Mr. Wright. What do you think of Ms. Monroe as architecture?

Thank you very...

I'm... (LAUGHS) I sincerely hope that you will autograph it for me.

A revolutionary in his life as well as in his art, Frank Lloyd Wright belongs to what may be a vanishing breed. In an age of conformity he remains a defiant non-conformist, he believes in, and belongs to himself. And I apologize to you tonight, or perhaps not, having permitted him to bring to you enough of himself.

Good evening. What you are about to witness is an unrehearsed, uncensored interview, a continuation by popular demand of my interview of four weeks back with Frank Lloyd Wright. My name is Mike Wallace. The cigarette is Philip Morris.

Tonight we go after the story of an American whom historians may rank as one of the greatest men of our times. And if they did rank him that high, Frank Lloyd Wright, a proud egotist, would be the first to compliment them on their good judgment. Born in 1869, and now probably the leading architect of the twentieth century Frank Lloyd Wright has also been hailed as a prophet in politics, religion and morality. He's been roundly damned too, for his scathing criticism of American culture. Let's find out why. Frank Lloyd Wright's opinions are not necessarily mine, the station's, or my sponsor's Philip Morris Incorporated, but whether you agree or disagree we feel that none will deny the right of this views to be broadcast. Mr. Wright, first of all let me ask you this, you once said, "If I had another fifteen years to work, I could rebuild this entire country, I could change the nation" Now, way of life of more than one hundred and seventy million people?

Yes. When you say, "I could rebuild this entire country, I could change the nation"

In other words you're saying...

You're saying that practically everyone in the United States is out of step except Frank Lloyd Wright.

Well as an architect...

As an architect, how would you like to change the way that we live?

Yes, but you cannot differentiate what we live in, and the way with... from the way we live. We are what we live and when we live.

Well now, organic building, organic character, these are words which the mobo... the 'mobocracy' perhaps would have difficulty in...

I'm still not... I would like specifically, to know what you mean, how would you like to change the way that we live?

When you come to New York, as you did today. And you see... Did you come by air?

And you see the skyline of New York, this does not excite you, this does not exalt you in any manner?

It does not?

The idea is obviously, as it would seem to me, that a lot of people want to live together, as you point out, to make their livings, to make money, to... to enjoy what this large city has to offer. And I guess from time immemorial people have flocked more or less to one spot to exchange ideas as well as goods.

But you're still...

Let's move from architecture to individual human beings; yourself, one of the human beings I'd like to talk about. You wrote this about a fellow architect, and I wonder how much of it also applies to Frank Lloyd Wright. You wrote about your former master Louis Sullivan. You said, "Like all geniuses he was an absorbed egocentric, exaggerated sensibility, vitality boundless, this egotism though, is more armor than character, more shell than substance." What you are showing us tonight, Mr. Wright? Are you showing us more... armor than character, more shell than substance?

I don't know you well enough, nor have I talked to you long enough...

...to make sense. But so... therefore, I ask...

Well, yes, I think that each one of us in his own way can be his own judge. Er... every word that you say, you say because you believe or do you say, sometimes at least, for calculated effect?

All right, all right, under those circumstances let's move to some specific opinions. In one of your books; “Frank Lloyd Wright on Architecture,” you wrote, "We can escape literature nowhere, and its entire fabric is drenched with sex, newspapers recklessly steer sex everywhere. Every magazine has its nauseating ritual of the girl cover, the he-and-she novel is omnipresent."

What's wrong with sex, Mr. Wright?

Then, why do you write what you say?

Why do you write what you say?

Well, we're a young culture. We're a... we're younger...

All right, we are a young civilization that takes time to develop a culture.

Then, how do you account for the fact? Let's go to motive, to understandings of why? If...

Why we are so preoccupied not with above, as you point, but... point out, but below the belt?

Haven't you ever thought about it?

You're just commenting upon the fact and not trying to find out the reason.

In what way, if any, has your attitude towards sex changed over the course of the past sixty, seventy years?

Let's turn to your political views. After a visit to Soviet Russia, back in 1936, '37, you wrote the following in a publication called “Soviet Russia Today.” You wrote, "I saw something in the glimpse I had of the Russian people themselves which makes me smile in anticipation" This was twenty years ago.

The Russian spirit You said, "I felt it in the air, saw it as a kind of aura about the wholesome maleness of her men and femaleness of her women."

Freedom already affects this people unconsciously, a kind of new heroism is surely growing up in the world in the Soviet Union.

You still feel that way?

I do.

Roosevelt?

Well now, you are an individualist, you certainly believe in freedom.

You cherish it. Therefore, how can you explain this enthusiasm for a country which even then, and certainly now, has instituted thought-control by terror, political purges by blood, suppression of intellectuals?

Er... frankly, you're putting this question to me personally, and I... I find it very difficult to disassociate government and people.

But the people have to stand still for it.

But don't governments grow out of people, Mr. Wright?

But we are responsible, I think.

Well then, in the days that have gone by since our Declaration of Independence we've gone to the dickens in the hand-basket, but somebody has been responsible and evidently the people have to be responsible. When I say the people, the mob, whomever. People don't arrive at being President, or Senator, or Mayor unless they are elected.

Well, what's wrong with communism? You just... are free.

You love the people of Russia...

You love the people of Russia, but you do not love their government.

Mr. Wright, suppose you were approached by one of your students, one of your apprentices say...

Who felt pessimistic about his future because of the hydrogen bomb, the threat of war, the world's general insecurity, and he came to you and he said, "Mr. Wright, help me to understand, give me something to live by." What could you tell him?

And the answer is?

Uh-huh.

Mr. Wright, you...

You have faith in youth, you have no faith in the mob, yet youth becomes adult and turns into a mob. Or do I misunderstand?

You write at some small length anyway in your latest book A Testament published by Horizon Press, you write about your religious ideas. I understand that you attend no Church.

Which is?

Uh-huh. You... Your attitude towards organized religion is...

Well, I want to... this I do want to understand.

What do you think of church architecture in the United States?

Because it improperly reflects the idea of religion?

Let's go to...

No, no, as a matter of fact, no one has asked me, but I heartily agree.

Well now wait, wait. I said that I heartily agree, and yet something immediately comes to mind. When I walk into St. Patrick's Cathedral, and I am not a Catholic, but when I walk into St. Patrick's Cathedral here in New York City, I am enveloped in a feeling of reverence.

Just because the building is big and I am small you mean?

Hmmm. I think not.

You... you feel nothing when you go into St. Patrick's?

Regret? Because of what? Because...

When you go out into a big forest, with towering pines, and this almost a feeling of awe, that frequently you do get in the presence of nature, do you then not feel insignificant, do you not feel small in the same sense that I feel small and insignificant?

Let's talk...

You are clear, although I must say that I don't agree because whatever inspires, whatever inspires a feeling of reverence, a feeling of goodness, a feeling of under... not understanding, that's not...

Not understanding I say, it's good for the insides, it's good for the soul.

Mr. Wright, what is your opinion of the American Press?

The communications industry.

Yes.

Well, you certainly are not against eclectic reading.

What magazines do you read?

Truly?

And what are the few that you do?

Uh-huh.

Do you feel?

Uh-huh. You don't feel that you need the news. You don't feel that you have to be...

Do you think that you are any less rebellious, less of a radical in your art and life, than you were a quarter of a century ago, Mr. Wright?

To what do you attribute your...

Yes, you are. And I want you to give, if you will, the answer to just one more question.

Are you afraid of death?

Do you believe...

Do you believe in personal... in your personal immortality?

Mr. Wright, I thank you for spending this half hour with us.

It has indeed.

Good evening. I'm Mike Wallace. What you're about to witness is an unrehearsed, uncensored interview. My guest has been called the "First Lady of Radio" -- you see her behind me -- she is Mary Margaret McBride. She has interviewed on radio some thirty thousand persons since 1934. Tonight we'll try to find out what Mary Margaret thinks about her housewife audiences, about religion, spinsterhood, politics, and bikini bathing suits. Her opinions are not necessarily mine, the station's, or my sponsor's -- Philip Morris, Inc.--but whether you agree or disagree we feel that none will deny the right of these views to be broadcast. We'll talk with Mary Margaret in just a moment.

And now to our story. Mary Margaret McBride has been a gentle trailblazer all her life. While most of her friends were looking for husbands, she left Paris, Missouri to track down news beats as a reporter in New York City during the roaring twenties. Beginning in 1934 she spearheaded radio journalism by interviewing ex-convicts and statesmen, burlesque queens and society matrons, with a single-minded dedication that gave her virtually no time at all for a private life. Let's try to find out, among other things, why she has done it. Mary Margaret, according to the Kansas City Star on March 13, 1955, you said -- on the evening of March 12, 1955 out in Kansas City, you said the following Had I married the first man I was engaged to and settled here in Missouri, I would have made my children miserable. I would have reminded them that if it wasn't for them I'd be famous in New York. Now then... why -- seriously now -- why was being famous here in New York City so all out important to you?

You're confessing at being a ham and you're calling me one at one and the same time.

And yet, at the same time, you were willing to sacrifice a lot of other things for that hamdom.

The drive was there and you stayed with it.

Well, now, chances are some...thirty, thirty-five years later, that you're typical of a good many career women who have chosen that career instead of a family. You once said, Mary Margaret, and this was in the Women's Home Companion back in April of '49... you said My programs are my whole life. And though you admitted it was a temporary kind of thing, you described your interviews on radio as "conversational love affairs". Now then... have these "conversational love affairs" been worth devoting virtually your entire life to them?

What do you mean?

What do you mean? I had you on the local show about six months ago.

At that time you were convinced that everything was fine. It had been worth it. Now you really mean that you've changed your mind?

You're not?

Well now, Mary Margaret, I think perhaps we're arriving at something here. You said six months ago one thing. You've changed your mind a little bit. Is it television that has got you down? Here was a woman who for a period of a quarter of a century talked to virtually everybody in the United States of consequence -- had a chance to talk, to draw them out and so forth. You were the "First Lady of Radio." Is the feeling of a lack of fulfillment now due simply to the fact that television has not proved to be your great golden road?

Stella Karn, of course, was your good friend and manager for years and years and years.

The kind of fame, the kind of career that you pursued, Mary Margaret -- was it not at all a lonely life for a woman?

Has it not been...and has the one been worth the loneliness... has the career been worth the loneliness?

Of course

Mary Margaret, on the surface -- and I'm not so sure that it isn't well beneath the surface too -- but on the surface you seem a good deal less sophisticated ...much gentler than most people in radio and television. But some people who know you have different and other ideas. For instance syndicated columnist Robert Ruark... good friend of yours?

He wrote this about you back in '49. He said: Behind this frilly facade... she has a head as hard as a paving block and a canny brain that could tangle with Andre Gromyko and come out at least even. Is the Mary Margaret that we've seen through the years, and that we see here tonight, just a facade, an act by a shrewd business-woman, Mary Margaret?

Why did Bob Ruark write that? Do you think, was he just having fun?

I did.

What has happened to all this now... tell me.

Yes.

Why?

Because of Stella.

So here is an extraordinary situation really. Here is a woman in her middle fifties who's had a wonderful and a distinguished and an exciting and a worthwhile career who is now in a sense all dressed up with no place to go.

I was struck by that in reading old material of yours... stories about you... about that fact.

Did you ever get sued, Mary Margaret?

Never did.

Not yet.

Tell me this, Mary Margaret... when I talked to you on the local show again last winter you said something that I didn't have a chance to follow up on... this was pure gossip column item but I have to get it straight. You said something to the effect that some years ago when you were in Rome, you seriously considered having a child... in Rome.

Was it depraved?

Would you like to tell us the complete story and let's find out.

Marry him and then leave him, Mary Margaret?

What stopped you?

You mean he wanted to marry you and then have you stay there in Rome, than come back to New York.

You think really now -- I'm quite serious -- that would have been a good idea, though, seriously to marry a man just for the purpose of having a child, then coming on home?

It sounded a good deal more emancipated than it really was.

Mary Margaret, you once said according to Sidney Field's column in the Daily Mirror, back in '53, you said: Age teaches you that the values you once thought were corny are not corny. Now specifically what values did you mean?

You did all of those things, too?

Do you really?

You have apparently lost at least one value from your Missouri upbringing. You come from Baptist stock, don't you?

Your grandfather was a preacher.

But I understand, you almost never attend church. How come?

Yes.

Not very much.

But formal religion, as such, doesn't do much for you?

Do you pray, may I ask?

By yourself?

Um-hmm. Do you -- Tell me to stop if you want me to, Mary Margaret. Do you ask for things when you pray?

What do you mean?

What I don't understand about you, Mary Margaret, is this. You keep talking as though -- as though you don't have much confidence in yourself.

But why? Here is a woman -- here you are, a person who has contributed so much to so many people through so many years. You've gotten personal acclaim. You've had professional success. You have good friends, you have the respect of your peers in this business and the respect of your friends out of the business. And yet you, you seem to feel unfulfilled. Why?

Mary Margaret, I imagine you've sold more products for more sponsors than virtually anybody else in the business. Now, I'd like to talk to you about something terribly different now. About, commercials. The poet Carl Sandburg said last week about television commercials, according to Time Magazine, June 17th, he said: More than half the commercials are filled with inanity, assinity, silliness, and cheap trickery. Do you agree with Mr. Sandburg?

You do. What is a good television commercial?

But can't you dress honesty up? In an appealing, in a different, uh, facade, in a different costume? And still have it honest, can't you make it entertaining and honest at the same time?

He did ... but I don't have all of it. He'll of course he -- he went on -- he railed against television for a a considerable length of time, in his speech. I believe it was before a ladies club down in Virginia or West Virginia, somewhere like that.

Yes you could.

Yes you could and it's criminal, truly. It's criminal, that the television audience of the United States doesn't have a chance to see you doing it. But wait just a second. You take a look at this commercial for about a minute then I have some other things to talk to you about and believe me, this commercial is an honest one. But I'm going to turn the tables on you, after this commercial. You have held millions of fans for a quarter of a century on radio, by getting your guests to express their opinions on controversial issues, Mary Margaret, so in a minute I would like your personal opinions on legalized gambling, prohibition, bullfighting and bikini bathing suits.

And we'll go after the answers to those questions in just one minute.

All right now, Mary Margaret. You've quizzed others in the past, I quiz you. Bullfighting, what do you think about it?

Did you.

What about boxing on television?

What!!

Whoever told you that is wrong.

Prohibition?

Yes, that's right. Legalized gambling.

Why?

Of any kind, truly?

Do you know why? Not a question of religious scruples?

It's funny how a good deal of that has a way of hanging on.

Bikini bathing suits?

You know, talking about Missouri. Let's go back there for just an instant. A profile of you in the New Yorker Magazine back in '42, 1942, noted the contrast between you and the often worldly guests that you've interviewed on the air. The article said: It is not irrelevant to remark that in Paris, Missouri where Mary Margaret was born, husbands and wives sit next to each other at parties. What is your opinion, Mary Margaret, of the somewhat more emancipated manners of your friends in show business, the arts.

About your friends, people in the business, show business, and the arts and so forth. Who are your good friends, Mary Margaret, whom you see a good deal of?

Can I persuade you to have a cup of tea with me tonight after we get through?

Well, don't you say it.

Mary Margaret -- thank you Mary. You are now 58 years old.

Not quite. We have just a minute for this answer. As I said before, you have personal acclaim, professional success, good friends. What do you want for yourself? From here on.

I'm sure of that.

Bless you, Mary Margaret, and thank you for coming here tonight.

A girl from Paris, Missouri... Mary Margaret McBride... took on New York at the height of the bathtub gin era and in the past thirty years she has traveled the world, she has met the international set, she has dealt with high-powered sponsors. But the unusual thing about Mary Margaret -- one writer has observed -- is that she is still a wide-eyed innocent in a world of radiant marvels. I'll bring you a run-down on next week's interview in just a moment.

Next week we go after the first part of a two-part story of Men and War. First, we're going to find out why David Hawkins, you see him behind me, became the youngest, the youngest U.S. Army turncoat of the Korean War. Why he fell victim to a new kind of weapon... Red Chinese brain washing... and what happens when turncoats like Hawkins repent and return home. Were the turncoats a combat casualty or traitors? It is the question that has concerned President Eisenhower, army psychologists, the nation's press. The latest story appearing in this week's Look Magazine. We'll try to get the answer first-hand next Sunday. And a week from Sunday we'll go after the story of a different kind of soldier... a hero. Our guest will be Commando Kelly, winner of the Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroic exploits, which included killing forty German troops in a single days' fighting. Now, all but forgotten and struggling to support a family, Commando Kelly's comment on the rewards of heroism is: “You can't eat your medals.” 'Til next week then for Philip Morris, Mike Wallace, good night.

Good evening, what you're about to witness is, an unrehearsed, uncensored interview on the issue of Birth Control. It will be a free discussion of an adult topic, a topic that we feel merits public examination. My name is Mike Wallace, the cigarette is Philip Morris.

Tonight, we go after the story of the woman who violated convention and bucked powerful opposition to lead the Birth Control Movement in America. You see her behind me, she is Mrs. Margaret Sanger, who was thrown into jail eight different times for her efforts. If you're curious to know why Mrs. Sanger has devoted her life to the Birth Control Movement, if you'd like to hear her answer to the charge that Birth Control is a sin, and if you want to get her views on politics, divorce and God, we'll go after those stories in just a moment.

My guest's opinions are not necessarily mine, the station's or my sponsor's Philip Morris Incorporated, but whether you agree or disagree, we feel that none should deny the right of these views to be broadcast. One might say that the basis of this program is fact and fiction. And using that yardstick I'd like to apply it to something I usually talk about at this time and that is this: Philip Morris Cigarettes.

Here's why I smoke 'em and enjoy them. Fact One:-- Today's Philip Morris is no ordinary blend, it's a special blend, of domestic and imported tobaccos. Opinion? My taste may be different from yours, but on this I think we can agree. This cigarette tastes natural; I think you'll like it. Fact Two:--Today's Philip Morris is made of mild, lighter leaf tobaccos. Opinion. To me that accounts for the genuine mildness I get in every puff--it's what I call a man's kind of mildness, there's no filter, no foolin', no artificial mildness, because you see there's nothing between you and the tobacco itself. And fact three is, of course, this box. Philip Morris was the first non-filtered cigarette to come in a crush-proofed box. Opinion? A cigarette that keeps better, smokes better, so get with Philip Morris yourself and check these facts, when you do, I think you'll find it's probably the best natural smoke you ever tasted. And now to our story.

When Mrs. Margaret Sanger opened the first Birth Control Clinic in the United States, back in 1916, birth control, was a dirty word. The police threw her into jail as they were to do seven more times during her crusade. A crusade that still faces the reasoning, but unalterable opposition of the Roman Catholic Church. That crusade kept Mrs. Sanger away from her children for long periods. It helped to break up her first marriage, and she suffered constant harrowing social abuse.

Mrs. Sanger, in view of all of that, let me ask you this first of all. Why did you do it? I realize that you had an intellectual conviction that birth control was a boon to mankind, but I'm sure that others have had that conviction too, and so what I would like to know is this: What events --what emotions in your life, made Margaret Sanger a crusader for birth control?

There are some other possible reasons that suggest themselves on reading your biography by Lawrence Lader. Your mother, as you say, died prematurely after bearing eleven children. She was born a Catholic, was she not?

And your, your father was sort of a -- village atheist, who clashed with church authorities and because of his atheism his earnings dwindled under community pressure --you and your brothers and sisters were known as quote children of the devil, end quote. Could it be then, that in part at least you were driven emotionally toward the birth control movement because of antagonism toward the church, because that was a way to fight the church.

Well in going after your motive then, and I will press you just a little bit more about that and then get to the specifics of this evening, but in your motive, in the movement, is it possible that the movement itself -- the feeling of wanting to do anything that you felt was important, that perhaps that moved you a good deal.

Because, the fact remains that you led a movement against overwhelming pressures that stem back to centuries and in doing so according to your autobiography, you even left your first husband, and you wrote this to a friend, Mrs. Sanger. You said, "where is the man to give me what the movement gives, in joy and interest and freedom." Now, what was this joy, this freedom, that you craved?

hm -- hm -- obviously..

Mrs. Sanger, you have helped to spread the Birth Control Movement, not only here in the United States, but in Europe, and the Orient as well. Why? Why is Birth Control of such vital importance internationally? Is it just to save womens' suffering is that the only reason in your mind?

Well, do you believe that Birth Control is essential if we want to keep millions of people across the world from starving is that your thesis?

Do you feel that Birth Control is essential to keep millions of people across the world from starving?

Well, what's more important -- Birth Control or picking up the resources?

But certainly around the world there is potential agricultural land that is not being properly used now. Just this past year on May 21st the New York Times summarized an important study of the world's food resources, made by Professor James Barner of the California Institute of Technology. Professor Barner says that the world is not using one billion acres of potential agricultural land and he adds that if this land were used, and present agricultural land were improved, the entire world could be fed adequately even if the population increased by one third in the next fifty years.

You say that originally the opposition was in all law and you had to fight against that. Today your opposition stems mainly from where, from what source?

Of the church

Of the hierarchy of the church. You feel that the parishioners themselves, the lay--people of the church are not against it.

Well let's look at the official Catholic position...opposition to Birth-Control. I read now from a church publication called "The Question Box" in forbidding Birth Control it says the following: It says the immediate purpose and primary end of marriage is the begetting of children, when the marital relation is so used as to render the fulfillment of its purposes impossible--that is by Birth Control--it is used unethically and unnaturally. Now what's wrong with that position?

Well the natural law they say is that first of all the primary function of sex in marriage is to beget children. Do you disagree with that?

Your feeling is what then?

Surely, a celibate attitude but you agree that Catholicism according to the tenets of Catholicism they rule that birth control violates not only the church's position --it isn't the church's position but they say it violates a natural law as I have just explained, therefore birth control is a sin no matter who practices it. Now the violation of the natural law--you certainly can take no issue with the natural law as the hierarchy of the Catholic Church regards it...

Well let me ask you

Let me let me ask you this question. Suppose a healthy, well-to-do couple decide for some reason never to have children, use birth control all their lives. Would you say that your methods are being misused, Mrs. Sanger?

No, I say a healthy, well-to-do couple. A couple that just doesn't want children and for that reason they use birth control all the way. Do you think that is a misuse of your methods?

I asked you your motives a little while ago, at the beginning of the program--your motives in working for birth control as hard as you have for as many years as you have. You reject the principle Catholic argument against birth control as being totally invalid. Well what do you think is the reason, the motive of the Church in forbidding birth control?

Well ah -- you couldn't say officially what their motive is but you certainly must have an opinion about it, Mrs. Sanger.

But you won't hazard a guess.

May I ask you why? Now I know that in private and...in--actually in public discussions, I think, prior to this time--you have been willing to state your understanding of what the motives of the Church are and now you would you would rather remain silent. May I ask you why?

Have you heard it said, that the reason that the Church is against birth control is because they want more Catholics?

Do you believe it?

I see...of course the Church's answer--the Church's answer, and I read now from a pamphlet published by the Redemptionist Fathers in Missouri, says as follows: It says "that point of view about wanting more Catholics is nonsense. Quote, "The Catholic Church does not command Catholic husbands and wives to have even one child. The Church considers it more than normally meritorious for them to have no children if they mutually and perpetually give up the use of the marriage right for the Love of God."

Well, they believe, you see, that it was a natural law, not a Catholic Law, but a "natural law," and therefore a sin not just for Catholics, but a sin for all peoples...and I think that there are other religious groups, the very very Orthodox Jews, feel the same way about birth control. Let's look at another argument against Birth Control, Mrs. Sanger, published in Red Book Magazine, in March of 1956.It says "Birth Control is a devastating social force, which tends to weaken the moral fibre of the community. Immunity from parenthood encourages promiscuity, particularly when unmarried persons can so easily avail themselves of the devices." Do you doubt that?

You do…

Then let me read from a news story in the Philadelphia Daily News on June 10th, 1942.The story quotes you as urging the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps to give its members quote preventive measures against pregnancy end quote and you add,quote abortion and illegitimacy are bound to result if the Government doesn't recognize human nature. End quote.In other words you were not advocating Christian morality, but rather ways for single women to avoid bearing illegitimate children.

Philadelphia Daily News -- June 10, 1942 direct quote from Margaret Sanger.

Well, in the same vein in your autobiography --which you cannot disavow-- you wrote the following about Sexologist Havelock Ellis. You said "he's been able to clarify the question of sex and free it from the smudginess connected with it from the beginning of Christianity". Now why --what do you mean by the smudginess connected with sex and why do you blame it on Christianity?

Mrs. Sanger do you disagree that Catholics or do you feel that Catholics should not have a right to have a say when the city administration contemplates spending their tax dollars on birth control or the dissemination of birth control information? Something that Catholics believe is sinful.

Do you feel that they don't have a right to have a say when a city administration contemplates spending their dollars -- tax dollars on birth control? For instance here in New York Catholics comprise about 45% of our population -- they're the largest single group. Well, don't you think that they should have the democratic right to lobby against having their money spent their tax money spent on something that they consider evil?

But they have a right to get up and...

Well, of course this is a little bit of variance of something you have told our reporter earlier this week, you said earlier this week --"it's not only wrong it should be made illegal for any religious group to prohibit dissemination of birth control -- even among its own members". In other words you would like to see the government legislate religious beliefs in a certain sense.

Well, now you know that my reporter spent a good deal of time with you. He's a very accurate young man...

And this is a this is a specific quote.

What are your religious beliefs, Mrs. Sanger? Do you believe in God in the sense of a Divine Being -- who rewards or punishes people after death?

Do you believe in sin -- When I say believe I don't mean believe in committing sin do you believe there is such a thing as a sin?

But sin in the ordinary sense that we regard it -- do you believe or do you not believe.

Do you believe infidelity is a sin?

Yes, but then you asked me to say what--and I said what and ah--you refuse to answer me?

Murder is a sin...

In just a moment Mrs. Sanger I'd like to ask you about another social problem here in the United States -- Divorce. Nearly four hundred thousand couples get divorced in this country each year. And I'd like to get your views on the cause and possible prevention of this problem. We'll get Mrs. Sanger's answer to that question in just sixty seconds.

Get with Philip Morris in regular pack or crush proof box, probably the best natural smoke you ever tasted.

Now then Mrs. Sanger there are nearly four hundred thousand divorces or annulments in America each year --What -- and this is hard to do in the short time, of course, that we have -- what do you recommend to cut down the divorce rate?

May I ask you this, could it be that women in the United States have become too independent --that they followed the lead of women like Margaret Sanger by neglecting family life for a career? Let me quote from your biography describing your second marriage to Noah Slee. Quote, "In New York Mrs. Sanger maintained every clause of their compact of independence. They had separate apartments --they telephoned each other for dinner or theatre engagements or passed notes back and forth". Would you call this a sound formula for marriage Mrs. Sanger?

I know that it did. You have two sons -- One final question. You have two sons… How many children have they?

I would indeed.

How many children, that's six in this family.

And in the other family?

Two girls. Mrs. Sanger I thank you so much for taking time out in coming and talking to us here this evening.

Well I thank you very much Mrs. Sanger. In the eyes of some Margaret Sanger has been a heroine, in the eyes of others she's been a destructive force. The purpose of this interview has been not of course to try to resolve this issue but to open it to a little sensible discussion. This was done with a feeling that all of us, regardless of our beliefs, can do nothing but profit from a free exchange of ideas. I'll bring you a run-down on next week's interview in just sixty seconds or so.

These few seconds at the end of the interview are among the most enjoyable of the week for me. For much as I enjoy smoking during the interview with Mrs. Sanger, I believe I enjoy this cigarette most right now...of course Philip Morris is easy to enjoy and the taste is natural -- there's mildness here too. Today's Philip Morris has what I call a man's kind of mildness-- there's no filter no fooling no artificial mildness, because there is nothing between you and the tobacco itself. Which is why I say get with Philip Morris, probably the best natural smoke you ever tasted.

Next week, by popular demand, we're going after more of the opinions, gripes, and philosophy of Frank Lloyd Wright. The revolutionary architect who attacked what he called the "mobocracy," on this program three weeks ago. This time we'll find out, among other things, why Mr. Wright says that he has a great affection for the people of the Soviet Union, and we'll get his views at the age of 88 on Death and Immortality. That's next Saturday night 'till then for Philip Morris, Mike Wallace -- goodnight.

Good evening...Tonight we go after the story of an extraordinary personality. He's Salvador Dali, the great surrealist painter who sees the world through surrealist eyes. If you're curious to hear Salvador Dali talk about decadence, death and immortality, about his surrealist art, his politics and his existence before he was born,we'll go after those stories in just a moment. My name is Mike Wallace, the cigarette is Parliament.

And now to our story. Salvador Dali is a self-confessed genius with an ingenious flair for publicity. An internationally renowned modern artist, he's also designed fur lined bathtubs, he's lectured with his head enclosed in a diving helmet and he claims that at the basis of his ideas are, as he puts it, cauliflowers and rhinoceros horns.

He paints like this, here you see perhaps his most famous work. It's called "Persistence of Memory". In contrast to this dream like picture, here is Dali's surrealistic commentary on the horrors of war. It's called "The Face of War". And now an example of Dali's latest phase, "The Crucifixion" showing his current preoccupation with religious subjects. Now let's try to find out some more about the enigma of Salvador Dali.

Dali, first of all let me ask you this, you're a remarkable painter and you've dedicated your life to art, in view of this, why do you behave the way that you do? For instance, you have been known to drive in a car filled to the roof with cauliflowers. You lectured, as I mentioned, once with your head enclosed in a diving helmet and you almost suffocated. You issue bizarre statements about your love for rhinoceros horns and so on. You're a dedicated artist, why do you or why must you do these things?

The more important and the more tragical part. I don't understand.

Well, what is philosophical about driving in a car full of cauliflowers or lecturing inside a diving helmet?

The what?

Oh yes, the "logarithmic curve"... yes...

Chastity is one of the most powerful symbols of modern times?

Well, we'll get to your spirituality your increasing spirituality over the years in just a moment. About lecturing with your head enclosed in a diving helmet, why? why?

What's that?

Penetrate ?

Yes, down in the sea?

In the depth of the sub-conscious?

We try to understand in all seriousness...We try to understand you and you try to explain but earlier this week you told our reporter, "I like to be a clown, a buffoon, I like to spread complete confusion." Before we were on the air, you said to me. "Ask embarrassing questions, ask embarrassing questions". Why?

Well are you...

You want to be a marvelous clown as well as a marvelous painter?

Well now wait. Wait. Despite your hi-jinks, time and again you have called yourself a genius and you're very serious about this. Now you want to be evidently, you want to be a genius in two fields. First of all, you have called yourself a genius?

You?

What else besides an artist?

Draftsmanship?

Oh yes.

In other words, what is most important to you...

.....is expressing Dali, not the painting, not the clowning, nothing but...

I see, I see. Let's take a look at one of your major paintings, Dali. It's called "Sleep". There it is now on the monitor. What's the point of this picture? Is there any point?

In other words, you conceive a good deal of your...

I was going to ask if there was any major theme, any powerful idea which inspires all your work, could you tell us what it was? Evidently what it is, is simply an expression of Dali, period. There is nothing more in it or am I wrong?

The what?

What is the cosmogony of Dali? What does that mean?

Dali, I must confess, you lost me about half way through and I'm not sure I'm not sure that we can let me try it another way. What does a painter, what does any painter contribute to the world and to his fellowmen? Any painter, not just Dali. What does a painter contribute?

Of himself, and it's as simple as that? Which contains.....

Which contemporary painters, if any, do you admire?

Of these, Dali and Picasso are the only two that really excite you?

The two geniuses of modern times are Dali and Picasso? In your autobiography, you wrote this, you said, "I adore three things, weakness, old age and luxury". Why?

In politics.

Way?

The most luxurious, all right. Now, old age...

And the most perfect? And old age? Why do you adore old age?

Young people are stupid?

And weakness, why do you adore weakness?

You write in your biography that death is beautiful. What's beautiful about death? Why is death beautiful?

Everything is what?

Erotic?

Oh, in other words, life is erotic and therefore ugly. Death is not erotic but sublime, therefore beautiful?

Is this by way of a suggestion?

Oh, I agree, I agree. Tell me this, what do you think will happen to you when you die?

You will not die?

You fear death?

Death is beautiful but you fear death?

Well yes indeed, Dali is paradoxical and contradictory but why -- why this fear of death? What do you fear in death?

You're not sufficiently convinced of your faith....

...in religion. Well now I spoke with you about a year ago and we talked about religion, and you said that as the years go by,you embrace Roman Catholicism more and more with your mind but not yet completely with your heart.

Why not?

How old are you Dali?

Are you formally involved with your religion? Do you go to church a good deal - do you pray - do you....

Not sufficient....Have you ever had a supernatural vision?

No supernatural. An article about you - you mention your fear of death. An article about you in Life magazine once said that you're afraid of almost everything from ocean liners to grasshoppers. The article said you won't buy shoes because you don't like to take off your shoes in public. And that when you go out you carry a little piece of Spanish driftwood which you keep to ward off evil spells.

Do you know anything about politics at all? You say you don't care about them. Do you know anything about them? Do you know, for instance who the prime minister of Great Britain is?

You think it will be?

Do you know - do you know who the Vice President of the United States is? Can you name him...

And you will answer... What do you enjoy doing most? Do you like to talk, to paint, to eat, to think? What, what do you like to spend your time doing, Dali?

A little more Dali.

First you wanted to be a cook - first you waited to be a cook, then you wanted to be a Napoleon.

You wanted to be a woman, cooking?

Napoleon.

In a moment I'd like to ask you about an extraordinary power which you claim that you have. You've written that you can remember your thoughts and your feelings before you were born. And I'd like to know what those thoughts and feelings were. And we'll get Salvador Dali's answer in just sixty seconds.

Now then, Dali - you said that you can remember not only things that happened to you in your infancy, but even your feelings before you were born. What were they? What did you think about? What did you feel?

I see, and what specifically.. What were some of these things?

Was it - well, what was it like? Was it, was it pleasant before you were born?

Paradise...

Well, under those circumstances I find it difficult to understand your fear of death. If the moment of being born was paradise-lost, perhaps death, for you will be paradise-regained. And therefore I would think that you would....

Do you, do you enjoy yourself as you live. Do you like yourself? You think - you say that you are a genius. Certainly you have had...

You do...

Yes, What kind of dreams do you have? What are they about, Dali?

You seem to be a mild-mannered man. Are you?

Are you, are you a mild man? Are you a pleasant man to deal with? Are you a friendly man? You seem to be a mild man.

Everybody loves Dali.

But your paintings - they're frequently violent. And you've written, that in your private life you have had sudden impulses to injure people. As a child you kicked people - you threw a friend off a rocky ledge. As an adult you confessed that you once kicked a legless beggar along the street.

Yes...

Is that so? And, and when you were a young man, too, you used to try to hurt - you were masochistic as well as sadistic. You used to try to hurt yourself...you'd bind your head until it hurt, because you felt that you could be more creative that way. You do not need that.....

Well, there's one story about yourself I'd like to ask you about before you go. When you were courting your wife, Gala you did an unusual thing. As you've described it, you smeared your body with your own blood from a cut. You tore your clothes and then you rubbed a jar of evil-smelling fish glue all over yourself. And you planned to present yourself this way in front of your future wife. Why did you do that?

Your brain, yes...

And you have been married now to Gala for how many years?

In 20 years.

Why - why shouldn't we believe? It's the most sensible thing in the world.

Well I don't think perhaps as exceptional as...

Chastity...

Dali, I certainly thank you for coming and spending this time. I'm looking forward to the publication of your new book, "Dali" which will be published in the Fall and I understand will have a good many color plates of your paintings in it. Thank you Dali.

To those who raise eyebrows or look down their noses at him, Salvador Dali bristles his remarkable moustache with equal disdain. As he puts it, "I cannot understand why human beings should be so little individualized. Why they should behave with such great collective uniformity." He says, "I do not understand why, when I ask for grilled lobster

Tonight's interview ends my series which started a year ago for the Philip Morris Company, the makers of Philip Morris, Parliament, and Marlboro cigarettes and I want to thank the Philip Morris Company, sincerely, for helping me to bring you these programs.

Next Sunday evening - next Sunday evening at ten o'clock Eastern Daylight Saving Time, on many of these stations, I'll start a new interview series devoted to the theme of Freedom and Survival. The series will be produced in cooperation with the Fund for the Republic and will be designed to encourage public discussion of freedom and justice. We're going to talk about the problems of the individual in his relationship to big government, big business, and big labor.

We're going to examine the growing power of political parties and pressure groups, we'll talk about the responsibility of our mass media...newspapers, magazines, motion pictures and television. We'll discuss these issues with such men as Supreme Court Justice William Douglas, Aldous Huxley, author of "Brave New World", industrialist Cyrus Eaton. Next Sunday night on the first program, we'll open the series with an examination of religious skepticism.

Of the conflict between church and state, of religion and morality in American life. Our guest, you see him behind me, will be one of the world's leading religious thinkers, the Protestant theologian, Doctor Reinhold Niebuhr. We'll ask Doctor Niebuhr why he charges that our current religious revival is essentially meaningless. We'll find out why Doctor Niebuhr says that religion can never abolish injustice and evil in society. That's next Sunday at ten on many of these stations. Until then, Mike Wallace - goodnight.